It’s Not (Just) About the Model

My last few posts have dealt in depth with multi-site models. First I shared how we do it at Redemption, then I argued that our model is stronger than video multi-site, and finally I offered some advantages that video multi-site has.

Throughout those posts, there was a lot of discussion about models. How things are done. Systems, structures, etc.

Models matter. Each model has inherent strengths and weaknesses.

But models aren’t everything. Culture is much more important.


You see, Redemption Church isn’t thriving primarily because of our model, as strong as I think the model is. So in this post I want to share the fuel — the culture — that allows our model to work.

1. We take God seriously, but not ourselves.

This is a phrase you hear quite a bit among the leadership. And it’s not just wishful thinking or an aspiration. It’s actually lived out. Our pastors and elders at every congregation are serious about God. They love him, read his word, pray, fast, repent, and strive to know him. But they don’t take themselves very seriously. They make fun of themselves and each other. They laugh. A lot.

As a result, there’s not striving or jockeying for position or attention — rather, there’s humility.

2. We have strong relationships among leadership.

The model of multi-congregational church only works when the leaders have strong relationships. With relationship comes trust and this trust enables us to work together in unity while celebrating the differences that each leader and congregation has.

Our leaders like being together. They are friends. They believe the best about each other.

I can’t imagine doing ministry in an environment without these kinds of relationships.

3. We really believe the gospel (most of the time).

That may sound pretentious to say “We really believe the gospel” as if other people don’t. That’s not my point.

The gospel is hard to believe. It’s especially hard to believe at a functional level when temptations for power, security, control, and approval lurk nearby.

Through the gospel, we have nothing to prove and nobody to impress.

I think our church is healthy and strong because we have many pastors and people who are doing the hard heart-work of believing this good news. As a result, we’re free to celebrate one other, love one another, rejoice with one another, and care for one another.

4. We value the little guy.

Because of the things above, we really esteem the little guy. We are thrilled to invest in people and places that are often overlooked or forgotten.

This is why we can have congregations of various size with leaders of various giftedness without jealousy, unhealthy competition, or infighting. In our leadership, the pastors of congregations over 1,000 people genuinely love and appreciate the pastors of congregations under 200 people (and vice versa). I love that.

5. We develop leaders and give them opportunities to lead.

One time I heard John Bryson say that he often has churches come to him and ask where they can find young, godly, mature, gifted, courageous leaders for their churches. His response: “They’re out there with Bigfoot, the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny.” He said that everyone wants these leaders but few people make them.

We are committed to making them.

We train leaders formally and informally. I think it flows out of our commitment to disciple-making and also out of the freedom from needing to build your own kingdom. If you’re trying to build your brand or your name, you won’t develop leaders. Or you’ll do it only for them to serve you. Some of our greatest joys are when we’ve sent out a young leader who we’ve had a chance to develop and grow.

I could do a long post on the things we could improve. My point is not to toot our own horn as much as it is that culture trumps model all the time. As Peter Drucker has said, “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” Now, strategy and model can reinforce or undermine your culture, but the core of what has made our ministry a blessing to be part of is this culture.

Thank you, Jesus.

4 Advantages of Video Multi-Site

My last few posts have been about Redemption Church’s multi-congregational model and then about why I believe this model is better than the video multi-site model. (Note: I didn’t say that our church is better than the video multi-site churches, but that our model is better).

multi-site church

In this post, I want to discuss four advantages that the video multi-site model has over the multi-congregational model.

1. Video multi-site leverages the significant strengths of a proven leader.

Churches that can even consider doing video multi-site are led by dynamic, gifted preachers who are often also gifted visionaries. These are often uncommonly gifted men whose gifts create parking problems and crowded rooms.

Whether a video multi-site starts in order to handle numerical growth or to reach a new community (or both), it has an advantage in starting with a proven, gifted leader doing most of the talking rather than a new church planter. While these churches still need good leadership to direct the ministry at the video campuses, there’s a huge advantage to having your teaching pastor be Andy Stanley, Mark Driscoll, James MacDonald, or Matt Chandler.

2. Video multi-site is much simpler.

Notice, I didn’t say that video multi-site is simple. It’s not. Any kind of multi-site is shockingly complicated. But video multi-site is much simpler than multi-congregational (read this post to see my definitions).

  • It’s simpler to have one message given by one person via video than to have multiple pastors preaching the same passages.
  • It’s simpler to reproduce your ministry to a new community than to shape every aspect of your ministry to a new community.
  • It’s simpler to rally everyone around the vision and teaching of one Lead Pastor than multiple key leaders.
  • It’s simpler to find a campus pastor who can shepherd and organize people but doesn’t need to preach than to find a church planter who can do all of it.
  • It’s simpler to have a campus pastor with limited autonomy than to have a visionary congregation Lead Pastor who can significantly shape the culture and nuanced vision of his congregation.
  • It’s simpler to have one visionary leader who calls the shots than to have a plurality of strong leaders who have to work together.


3. Video multi-site more easily creates unified, multi-campus momentum.

There’s a continuum in all multi-site ministry: on one end is “we’re one church,” and on the other is “with multiple locations.” The video multi-site model tend to emphasize “one church” and the multi-congregational model tends to emphasize “multiple locations.”

If the goal is to create a lot of unified synergy, video multi-site is the way to go. Because the preaching comes from one main voice (or few voices) and the ministry is highly unified or even centralized, it’s much easier to create unified momentum. It’s easier to get people at one campus to identify with and rally around the other campuses. This sometimes even allows some video multi-sites to raise money on behalf of other campuses, which would be really hard in a multi-congregational model.

4. Video multi-site can launch and grow new sites faster.

Because of the factors above, video multi-sites can reproduce with much greater speed than multi-congregational churches. For instance, we recently had a church approach us about giving us their property for a new Redemption location. Unfortunately we had to decline. While we have a number of exciting young leaders who are developing, we did not have somebody at the moment ready to carry the leadership and preaching burden. If, on the other hand, we could get one of our associate, staff-level pastors who can shepherd and organize people and put him with video preaching of a highly gifted preacher, we could make that happen quickly.

Additionally, video multi-site churches can often grow faster. One of the major attractions to a church is the quality of the preaching and, with video preaching, the quality is superb. A church like Mars Hill can plant new campuses in cities where they already get many sermon downloads and quickly attract a strong following. Many church people are familiar with big-name preachers and transfer and many unchurched people are impressed with the high-quality communication and check it out.

There are a number of other strengths that video multi-sites and multi-congregations would have in common (reaching new people, multiplying ministry, leveraging administrative strengths and branding, etc.). But these are the places where I think video multi-sites have an edge.

In my next post, I’ll discuss what I think is at the heart of Redemption’s multi-congregational approach. It’s much more than just a “model,” and there are a few crucial elements worth highlighting.

What are some other advantages that you’d add to video multi-site?

5 Reasons Why Multi-Congregational Church is Better Than Video Multi-Site

In my last post I explained how our church does multi-congregational ministry. In this post, I want to flesh out how it’s different from “typical” video multi-site church and why I think our approach is better.

multi-congregational church

What’s the difference?

Technically, a multi-site church is one church meeting in multiple locations. The term multi-site is a bit like the term automobile. Just like there are different kinds of automobiles (cars, trucks, vans), there are different kinds of multi-site churches. For this discussion, I’m comparing multi-congregational churches with video multi-site churches.

A multi-congregational church is one church (one 501c3, payroll, employer ID, etc) with multiple congregations, each led by a Lead Pastor and elders who oversee the ministry, preach live, lead the vision and shape the culture of the local congregation in very specific and customized ways. Examples would be Redemption Church, Harbor PresbyterianExodus Church, and Redeemer Presbyterian (kind of).

A video multi-site church is also one church with multiple locations (usually called “campuses). In video multi-site, there is a highly gifted preacher (or team) who provide the sermons via video each week and lead the vision of the church. Local campuses are led by a Campus Pastor who reports to a centralized overseer from the main or original campus. While each campus has some distinct flavor, the branding, naming of ministries, culture and identity are highly similar between campuses. In some cases, even the service is planned identically (same songs, order of service, etc.). Examples would be North Point Community Church,, Mars Hill, The Village Church and dozens of other nationally known churches.

Many churches are some kind of hybrid or something else altogether — these are not the only two kinds. However, video multi-site is the typical kind of multi-site church (amazing that anything could be typical that is still so historically new), and I want to compare that to our less-typical approach.

Why compare?

Some might ask, “Why talk about what’s better? Can’t we just say they are different? Aren’t we all trying to reach people for Jesus?” I appreciate that kind of question.

Let me state very clearly: I am not against video multi-site. I don’t think it’s wrong or bad. I actually think video multi-site is a good thing. It’s awesome when a church has a such a vibrant ministry that it can even consider expanding into video multi-site and reaching more people.

Let me also state very clearly: I’m not saying video multi-site doesn’t work. It works amazingly well. People are coming to Christ in droves as effective ministry gets pushed into new communities.

Video multi-site is good and it works. But I still think it’s weaker than multi-congregational church. And, since many of my readers are church leaders and pastors — some of whom are considering expanding their ministry to some kind of multi-site approach — I think it’s worth making a case for why our model is stronger.

5 reasons why multi-congregational is better.

1. All ministry is truly local.

I was recently at a gathering of larger church pastors and some were explaining how they do video multi-site. They emphasized a crucial phrase: All ministry is local. Their point was that if everything at a campus has to come from the mothership, it’s a bad thing. Local leaders have to be strong.

I agree that all ministry is local. But in a multi-congregational model, we actually believe it.

At a video multi-site, all ministry is local except the preaching. All ministry is local, except the primary catalyst for instruction, culture-setting, and vision.

You can call your kids ministry the same thing and have the same signage, but you can’t tell me that the culture in Edmond, OK is so similar to Wellington, FL that it makes no difference where the preaching comes from. I know that television, technology and pop culture unite us more than ever, but you can’t convince me that the culture in Bellevue, WA is the same as Olympia, WA — let alone the same as Huntington Beach, CA.

For example, previously had a few campuses here in Phoenix. When I spoke to one of their leaders prior to launch, he was unaware that our suburban community has a 25%+ Mormon population. Additionally, they were surprised when their southern-accented preacher didn’t thrive out here in wanna-be-California. I was not surprised.

In multi-congregational church, sermons are preached, vision is cast and culture is shaped totally by leaders who are in the community where they are ministering. Lead Pastors have the opportunity to think through and address the issues that face their people and their neighbors in a way that video-preaching cannot.

2. Every level and kind of ministry is multiplied.

Video multi-sites are incredible at multiplication. Prior to going multi-site, they grew by multiplying services, small groups, and leaders. Then they grew by multiplying campuses and ministries. To do any kind of multi-site well, you have to multiply like crazy. But in video multi-site, everything gets multiplied except the preachers and the visionary leaders.

On the other hand, in a multi-congregational model (like a church plant) even the senior leaders get multiplied. This strengthens not only the congregations that get started but the body of Christ as a whole.

Now, some video multi-site pastors, like Mark Driscoll, have argued that he does multiply preachers because when he’s out of the pulpit he’s giving 15 preachers the chance to preach live. This means if he’s out of the pulpit 10 weeks a year, he’s giving 150 opportunities to preach. That is truly impressive. But while video multi-site gives a man the chance to preach, it never gives him the chance to be the preacher. Which leads to my next point…

3. Gifted young leaders want to stay.

I have no scientific data or research to point to, but from being quite connected in the ministry world, I can tell you that turnover among video multi-site Campus Pastors is very high. Additionally, many churches are having a hard time finding the kinds of leaders they need to be Campus Pastors.

In some cases, one wonders whether the turnover is because of the unhealthy culture of the particular church or because of the model itself. I’m not sure, but I know that gifted, visionary, leaders (especially with preaching gifts) are initially attracted to these visionary video multi-sites to receive training and growth, but often end up leaving when they realize there will not be a real opportunity to lead (North Point seems to be an exception).

On the other hand, we are attracting and keeping many young leaders who see that they can lead a congregation, have and cast a vision, and preach regularly while still having the benefits of being part of a healthy, visionary movement.

4. There is real freedom and real team.

My favorite part of being a Lead Pastor at a multi-congregational church is that I have the real freedom to lead with a real sense of team, friendship, and accountability.

I have a friend who was a Campus Pastor at a big video multi-site church that told me his boss came to town one day, didn’t like a song they sang (not on theological grounds, but stylistic) and told him, “We don’t sing that song here. You may not play that again.” Forget that the song fit his context better than the mothership’s context. It wasn’t allowed.

That would never happen for me. Instead, I can shape our ministry in ways that fit our context but still not be alone. I have real friendships with real peers who are in the same role as me and understand the same pressure I feel. We can carry each other’s burdens and help one another deeply.

5. It’s less dependent on one visionary leader.

All churches are personality driven to some degree. This is normal because people follow people. This is inevitable.

What nobody knows, however, is what will happen to the video multi-site movement when the visionary leaders go. The movement is too new to know. I’ve heard an assortment of ideas and plans for how things will be handled and many of them sound promising. But it concerns me to think that so much is riding on one leader.

In our model, the church as a whole is riding on a number of people. We’ve even lost our two best preachers (one to plant in San Francisco and the other to retirement) and have thrived despite the loss. This is partly because our model communicates that nobody is that important. As a result, the environment tends to be more humble and healthy.

Some video multi-site pastors scratch their heads when we tell them what we’re doing. They can’t imagine that something like this could work without a person like them calling the shots. It defies their categories.

Which makes me think we’re on a really good track.

These are some reasons why I prefer our model. In the next post, I’ll share some of the down sides and explain the advantages that video multi-site has over what we’re doing.

Any questions?

How Our Multi-Congregational Church Model Works

I am a Lead Pastor and part of the Leadership Team of Redemption Church, a growing multi-congregational church in Arizona. Our model of doing church is quite different from what most people have experienced. Especially among church leaders, we get a lot of questions about how and why we do what we do. This post will answer some of the common questions we get about our model.

multi-congregational church

How is Multi-Congregational Church different from Multi-Site Church?

Though we are technically “multi-site” (one church/multiple locations), this phrase often brings to mind video multi-site and is, thus, unhelpful in describing what we do. We also avoid the phrase “multi-campus” as it carries many of the same connotations. We will occasionally refer to a Redemption “campus” if we’re talking about the physical location. Otherwise we use the term “congregation.”

This is because we think the term “multi-congregational” most accurately describes what we’re doing. We are one church with multiple congregations.

We are one organization, with one employee ID number, one tax ID number, and one bank account. While united around theology, vision and values, each congregation has a very real opportunity to customize ministry to its particular context with its particular leadership.

How Does the Leadership Structure Work?

Each local congregation has a team of elders (staff and non-staff) that shepherd the congregation, oversee its ministry, set its budget, carry out discipline, hire its staff and lead the mission in its community. While these elders care deeply about the overall vision of Redemption Church, their authority and oversight extends only to the congregation they are leading.

There is also a Redemption-wide Leadership Team that oversees the church as a whole and make decisions that impact all congregations. This team consists of the Lead Pastors from each congregation as well as other strategic leaders including the CFO and Communications Pastor.

The Leadership Team is not focused on congregation specific issues (what music to play, how to get more small groups in Tempe, etc.), but is focused on Redemption-wide issues. These include policy, vision, acquiring property, and planting new churches or congregations.

Is There a Leader of Leaders?

Yes. Tyler Johnson is currently the Lead Pastor of Redemption Church. What makes this unique is that Tyler does not lead one of the congregations. Rather, he is a pastor to the pastors, often visiting different congregations, leading the Leadership Team, and forging relationships and partnerships between Redemption and outside organizations. This is only possible because Tyler is humble, trustworthy, and highly relational. He has apostolic gifting that allows other gifted leaders to follow and trust him.

How Do Finances Work?

Each congregation is expected to be self-supporting (obviously, this takes time for new plants).

At this point, each congregation gives roughly 10% to a centralized Outward Focused fund that supports church-planting and community ministry.

Each congregation also pays roughly 10% to Central Operations for accounting, payroll, communication, website, graphics, and facility maintenance services. This percentage could change in the future if the Leadership Team decides that more resources need to be devoted to Central Operations.

The remaining 80% is available for the local congregation to budget and spend as needed. These funds pay for facilities, staff salaries, and ministry expenses. In a very real way, this allows those giving at a local congregation to know that every dollar they give is supporting the mission of their local congregation, as even the Outward Focused and Central Ops monies are used to extend and support the ministry of the local congregation.

How Does Preaching Work?

Each congregation has regular live preaching, overseen by the congregation’s Lead Pastor. Most of the time (~45 weeks) each congregation is preaching on the same biblical text or topic. This allows the preachers to study in advance together (we have a weekly Preaching Collective for all preachers) and share resources. It also builds unity across our congregations as everybody is tethered to the same text. When necessary, the Lead Pastor has the freedom to set the scheduled sermon aside and address an issue he deems important.

How Much Unity is There? How Much Freedom?

These questions have been and continue to be the most challenging part of multi-congregational ministry. There is no set-it and forget-it approach. Based on personality and gifting, some leaders push for more unity and uniformity, while others push for more freedom and individuality. It’s a constant tension to manage and having this diversity of leaders forces us to a healthier place.

Additionally, one of the most confusing aspects early on was for pastors, staff, and volunteers to have clarity on chain-of-command, who had jurisdiction over what, and what ministry efforts were or should have been centralized or decentralized. To address this challenge, we introduced the following categories: Centralized, Unified, and Decentralized.

1. Centralized = Things done the same way, overseen by a centralized department. Right now, this category includes finance, accounting, HR, facility maintenance, media and communications, pastoral residencies and Outward Focused Ministries.

2. Unified = Things done the same way, overseen by the local leadership. Right now, this category includes communities (small groups), preaching, membership, classes, elder processes, church discipline, biblical counseling, and benevolence.

3. Decentralized = Things done in different ways, overseen by local leadership. Right now, many things are decentralized, including guest services, kids, students, worship, assimilation, internships and ministries for men and women.

How Does it Actually Make Everyone Better?

We don’t have a comprehensive list, but…

  • Lead Pastors are better because they have a team of other men in the same role who are supporting and encouraging them.
  • Staff are better because they have associates at other congregations who are doing similar work.
  • Volunteer leaders and new staff are especially helped by the experience surrounding them in other congregations.
  • Preachers are better because they sharpen each other and share ideas weekly.
  • Members are better because they have more places to invite friends and co-workers who live in other parts of town to attend.
  • Each congregation is strengthened by the overall reputation of Redemption.
  • Church planters are better because they don’t have to reinvent the wheel (especially with admin) and they have the support and strength of a movement behind them.
  • Newer congregations are better because financing is available that wouldn’t be available if they were on their own.
What other questions do you have about multi-congregational ministry?